about Socially Engaged Buddhism
5th of May 2013
Shambhalameditation Centre Vienna
What motivated you personally to engage in Eco-Dharma projects?
I think, first of all the fact that I had the opportunity to attend a normal regular school in India – unlike the traditional upbringing we have in a monastic education – which to me until now I am extremely grateful to that – so I had a school time as any regular children in Darjeeling. I think that really taught me a lot. That exposed me to “people to people contact” as a regular, normal child, and understand each other better in English. Now, WE also understand each other better.
So my – I think – That was somehow my seed or inspiration that I am very open to social (– you see –) contacts and social causes and so on. So later on when I came back to the monastic groves and responsibilities, it came to me quite naturally to apply the Buddhist idea of compassion in action. So to me what is compassion in action is certainly, looking at the pragmatic ways of reaching to the society, to the environment and so on. And so, this is how I felt a modern Buddhist can be in order to be a socially engaged Buddhist – and not just a practicing Buddhist but socially engaged Buddhist. I think that is the bridge that one can bring over.
And so, the Eco-Dharma was born with this incidence of the Sagadawa Festival, as I mentioned earlier (during the teaching, interviewer’s note), where Tibetan tradition puts up lots of prayer flags, but uprooted young trees for that purpose. So I was a little bit concerned about that. And I wanted to continue the practice – the spirituality part of it, the tradition part of it – but at the same time also somehow addressing the ecological issue behind. And this is how saving the trees used for the prayer flags, at the same time continuing the practice, bringing double benefit – this is where my Eco-Dharma was born.
Do you think that nowadays for a Buddhist practitioner it is kind of obligatory to engage in social or ecological activities or to lead a sustainable life-style?
You see, it is not that obligatory in a sense. I think people have different choices. But I feel that now as a Buddhist we are living increasingly in contact with the communities and societies. We are not like sometimes in the old days, it used to be that the communities lived in the mountains or totally secluded and sort of… You know they are ok, self-sustained by themselves. But now we don’t have that luxury any more. We are into the open society. And also for the last many years Buddhism has also made road into the actual society whether in the West or East.
So obviously we are connected through that. So social issues, social causes become the natural part of the Buddhist concern and Buddhist way of addressing life.
And at the same time I think Buddhism – the fundamental of Buddhism or the fundamental philosophy of Buddhism – is the interdependence theory, that we all are interconnected. So we can’t live without each other. That includes our nature, our environment. So naturally, you have a responsibility.
There are very dramatic things going on: Like the arctic is melting, climate warming… There are countless species dying out, the ecosystems are degrading, and many things going on, and one could get a perspective which is quite depressing somehow.
So what is the Buddhist answer to this?
I think the fact is that there is only so much you can do physically on a action field. Only so much you can do. There is also other part that we should be doing also: address the mental state as well. If we do not combine the two it is very difficult to find a lasting solution. Because there may be certain cure, certain answer for our needs, but there is no such solution for our greed. Needs are mostly physical, greed is more mental. So unless and until we also work on the mental state of how to develop a certain sense of contentment, satisfaction, how to develop a sense of responsibility for others, sense of sharing with others, sense of kindness, compassion and so on – until then, just on the physical level of actions – very difficult for long lasting solutions.
So what is happening in the world now, arctic melting, and extreme exploitation of nature… this is direct result of that greed, not need. It is never going to be justified that we come this far only on the basis of just needs. If we would really only working on the basis of needs, we wouldn’t have to exploit this much, but certainly what is sure behind: greed.
So I am sure that the next possible level is training the mind, develop mindfulness, develop awareness, and develop compassion and see the importance of interdependency, so that we can reduce the greed in the mind.
Then obviously if the mental state, we can somehow reduce the greed, our needs automatically reduce. Then that can have a long lasting impact in the future.
How do we get the message to as many or enough people that they live in this mindful way, and how could this kind of change the financial system? Because it’s also a kind of motor behind of this turning of economy.
You see, unfortunately economy is based on greed, actually. And what it has actually brought us? You know, look at the last few years of experience and almost financial meltdown, crisis. The crisis we are talking about is mainly created out of greed. You see… so it’s not fair, somehow, it’s not fair! You know, you are trying to fulfil some very few people’s pockets, few people’s greed, and putting in danger large section of people. So I think the ways to address, there must be some kind of collective consciousness, from the public level. The other day a saw there is a demonstration on the street for legalizing cannabis… ok, that’s one issue, but if there are such a number of people willing to be organised in demonstration for legalizing of cannabis, I’m sure we could or we should certainly look into this, such a reasonable thing to do is collective consciousness. Should be a moment on this, it’s time to address it, but through nonviolence – important. We can involve children, students, parents, workers,… grass root level of people behind, and slowly I think, there may be some intellectuals also, people in power… If they really think it in their heart, then I think there can be some kind of a collective influence that we can create. Now it’s actually a very good time to really, to create certain kind of awareness on this.
So it sounds like very much a question also of democracy in a way? Of Participation.
It’s a democracy, absolutely, but in the sense of also caring for our nature. Democracy not only just for the benefit of humans, but seeing the interlink, how it is important the health of nature in order for the health of human beings to sustain, and that is more than clear. We disturb the nature, we exploit the nature, we corrupt the nature, we pollute the nature… what we get? We get unhappy, we get unhealthy, we get disturbed. There is a direct link; so anybody who cares about humanity must care about the nature. Must.
If we have this feeling or impulse to wanting to save the world, can this be also an expression of being too much attached to the world? (What would be a good balance?)
Better to be attached to the world then to yourself, actually. But then again, you see, people jump too much into ideas. And then that has also become quite fashionable lately that everybody becomes part of a certain cause. Saving the world, saving the environment, it’s kind of a catchy point, jumping onto it. I think there is also a danger there. I think what people should do is before jumping onto such cause, involving in such socially engaged activities, as I mentioned always, first you engage yourself. Within yourself, you feel it, within your heart, within your self, the real importance of your link, of your interdependency, of your interrelation with the world. And as I said, we breath the same air, we have same water, we walk on same earth, we are feed by same earth. There are so many things that are commonly binding in us. So touching on those issues first in oneself, then one comes to the conviction of “Ok, what can I do? How can I give back? How can I really do something concrete?” Physically, materially, verbally, or emotionally, or spiritually… something. Then you see, you touch the fundamental, or you touch the basis of the purpose . You develop purpose. So you don’t run just because of interest . You see, that is my point. Typically, if it’s just about interest, they lose the purpose. So I think very important is building the purpose, and then go with the interest.
If a practitioner would have the choice to go in retreat for one year, or three years or whatever, or to take a position in a NGO like WWF or whatever, a responsible position, how would you advise such a person? What would be a guideline, how to engage, which or how to focus?
I think that is very much an individual thing again; suppose every individual may have this feeling of wanting to engage in society and do things like that, but not everyone is also equipped with such possibilities. So I think it’s a individual thing, you have to study, you have to reflect on, ok, I have this wonderful purpose, wonderful influence also, but am I ready? Do I have things in me to move, to convince, to create, to connect… and sometimes we might realise that maybe it’s beyond my limit. So you might find that actually I have a better possibility, of doing the retreat. So you choose to do retreat. And maybe after the retreat, maybe you are better equipped. So I would say it’s a very much individual’s choice. And for most of people, for example if you really are in a certain power, in a certain position, in a certain influential situation, then if you have a choice, going to retreat or getting this job over social work, then I would say, go straight into social work – because you have… you are equipped with that. Because then you can do something. It’s more then what 2, 3 hundred people can do. Your… One person’s voice, one person’s face, one person’s dedication can make a lot of difference. Because you are in that position, in that state, you are better equipped, it’s natural.
In meditation we have, especially in Mahamudra and Dzogchen we have this advice of being carefree, of not judging… so there seems to be a time of not engaging, not judging, not thinking of problems in a way. How to balance this, how to know when there is the time to not care, and when there is the time to care?
I think we can’t talk about Mahamudra and Dzogchen in the public context. We are talking right now on the field of social engagement. And particularly Dzogchen and Mahamudra are something particularly made for some particular practitioners, of different kind. Therefore it’s not proper to bring this into similar context. However, the Dzogchen and Mahamudra’s view of not caring, not being judgemental, it’s not meant like not to do anything, or ignore everything. It doesn’t mean that, actually. I think it means basically not to get involved in the game of attachment and aversion, in whatever you do. Because the bottom line is that you are still subject to, you are still obliged by the practice and the vows of compassion. No matter you are practising Dzogchen or Mahamudra or whatever, you are still bound by that oath of compassion. So you can never abandon anything actually, but way of doing so, is that you are not particularly concerned with being attached to some particular things; or developing aversion when things don’t work. There is certain sense of flexibility that you carry all the time. If things are working, you do joyfully; if things are not working, you are also ready to let go. So that is the freedom, that is the easiness we are talking about. To involve, to engage – wonderful if you can engage, and also taking full joy in the aspiration of engagement. Yet you don’t get stuck there just because things are going quite good. Or developing some kind of aversion because things are not going good. Certain level of flexibility and spaciousness must maintain with that practice.
When we practice, then we can become quite sensitive also to suffering, we see more suffering, like just seeing beggars or homeless people on the streets and so on, and this can feel quite overwhelming. How can we deal in a good way with this, that we don’t close again but to work further with it?
Yeah, I think that when we practice of course we begin more accepting, so we do not feel the need to be hypocrite, and always trying to play game, by putting up a game of pretention. Actually these things are always there. It’s not something that you become a Buddhist and you begin to see a new thing. It’s not true. This kind of difficult reality or misery part of life is always there. But somehow people kind of find ways of pretend, find ways of ignoring it. See, because that doesn’t suit them. But in Buddhist practice, due to the mindfulness, due to the level of training of compassion and so on, you are just beginning to be more accepting. So as you begin to be more accepting, then you begin to see things more clear, more real. That’s the only difference. It’s not because things doesn’t exist there before that once you become Buddhist these things are new, you see something new. It’s not true. It’s always there. And then of course, ya, it is overwhelming certainly, it can go overwhelming. I think, again, Buddhist teaching also teaches us not to be guilty somehow. You can feel the pain, you can understand, you can see the pain doesn’t mean you have to be guilty about that. It’s not about either you ignore or feel guilty. It’s not about that. You don’t ignore, you see, you accept. You see the situation but you don’t feel guilty somehow. So therefore, you do what you can. You do what you can, physically, materially, emotionally, spiritually, whatever. If you can do something then you do. Be very pragmatic here. There is nothing about just mental. Nothing about what’s right and wrong. You do what you can. And then if you realise that you actually can’t do anything, at least you can wish for it. At least you can wish for more. You don’t carry that sense of guilty feeling. Because then you can still be free to invest your time, your energy in some other projects in which you are good at. And later on you can always come back to help, when you can. Otherwise, either you’d completely ignore, or you just feel guilty and feel terrible, feel miserable but you can do nothing… it helps nobody.
So it seems to have a lot to do with the guilt actually, which makes it heavy.
Yes. And even if you give something out of guilt it’s not really good giving. It’s just that you don’t want to see this anymore.
If we are as Buddhists engaged in normal NGOs, like Amnesty International etc. what specifically can we give, or can bring into these organisations?
Power of reflection; Power of listening; That can really change the working culture. The power to listen first. And then you can have a strategy, a working plan. When you don’t listen, a lot of NGOs do make mistakes. They are going to completely new country, with a new culture, new tradition, new system, new expectation, all of this, they never listen these properly. They have some strong solid idea, come with this idea and kind of bang there. And so you almost force the idea onto a culture that you don’t understand, onto a landscape that you don’t understand, onto a history you don’t understand… so there is a lot of sensitivity around there. So instead of help, it might actually become harming. So I think as a Buddhist what we can actually bring in, into any kind of organisation, is really the power of listening, power of reflection. That is one important thing.
Other thing is also: never losing the purpose. That is the second important thing of Buddhist, not to lose the purpose, why you are there for, in the first place, what was your motivation. So that, the project goes up and down, and the colleagues, you may have problems here and there, but as far as you are connected to your original purpose, if you still keep on that purpose, motivated, you will always find a way to work out. Otherwise, again, there is a competition also; even if it’s NGOs, there is huge, lot of competition there. There is huge, lot of back stabbing, power game, all of this. In the end there is no such thing called real kindness, or compassion. So you end up worrying, wondering at, ok I’m doing good, of course, we are doing good, but where is the motivation? Isn’t there some kind of aggression here? Then what is the difference between NGOs and other organisations?
On the ecological level there are invasive species, which become problematic, like I think rabbits in Australia etc., and to balance the ecosystem one would have to kill a lot. I ask myself as a Buddhist how to view this and if I would be in a position to have to do this, how to deal with that, which such a situation?
That’s always a dilemma, it’s always difficulty. When I started my Malaria control program in India, where I live is a red zone, like really strong zone for Malaria. And I was very desperate to help and to do something about this, to control. And that obviously involves killing mosquitos, in some ways. And I had an internal turmoil, so I consulted some other teachers, Buddhist teacher, senior teachers like “my dilemma, what to do”, because there are lives that are being lost, many people get infected, many people die also, but to use these kind of other measures would also mean killing the insects. So I think Buddhism has always been very pragmatic anyway, and is not dogmatic in such ways, so my teachers suggested, ok, you have to know, in this situation you have to see, which life is more valuable, which life is more important: So, obviously, human life, in this case.
And second thing is, by destroying certain degree of the insects, mosquitos’ population, does it actually harm other things? Actually it doesn’t. There is no other disaster or side-effect coming out of that. So that’s how I went ahead with the Malaria control project. But I use like mosquito nets, there is no directly killing, so we distribute thousands of nets, and yes, we dry all the sewages and water bodies, ponds and things like that. And we equipped better testing machine for Malaria, so that if you know fast enough then you can also prevent from getting serious issues. So we set up few possibilities, not straight directly into just spraying the things. And yes now after 15 years we have many studies (showing), in our area at least, 90 percent reduction on Malaria cases. So that’s a huge improvement.
So yes, under certain circumstances, yes, if you have to choose what is more important, then that’s how you should go.
There is also this thing like in biological agriculture, we use animals ,“useful animals”, which eat the pest , and I should not rejoice in them killing the others…
Right.
…on the other hand it’s better than using chemicals…
Yes, absolutely. So this also comes under similar kind of circumstances…
…So it would just mean, you do it, but you don’t rejoice in it, somehow…
Yes you don’t rejoice, or you do it because you are doing it for a higher purpose actually. The purpose is higher than you have for certain ways you need to do.
Is there any advice which you would like to give, or something which is left to say for Austrian Buddhists (laughs) or…
Drink less coffee (laughs)… I think it’s time that Buddhists take more role in the society, on the social stage, on educational stage, I guess there is no more now necessary to hide, or being embarrassed, or shy about being a Buddhist. You can be totally proud of being a Buddhist. There is nothing wrong with it, on plus you should be able to contribute to society, to contribute to your own society first, to your own family first, that it could have a positive impact on the health and wellbeing of the family, of the society. So if that is there, everybody should appreciate, why not? As far as any relation, if that is some kind of harming the fabric of wellbeing, health and wellbeing of the society, then there has to be precaution on that. I believe that the fundamental teaching of Buddhism is really about caring for others, developing kindness, compassion, all of this – who doesn’t need that? Who doesn’t need caring? Of course it doesn’t mean that just because you are Buddhist then you have the ability to care. It doesn’t mean that. The ability to care is always there, being Buddhist or not Buddhist doesn’t matter. But coming to Buddhism reinforces you of your ability to care. So why not? So I would really like to say to the Buddhists in Vienna that caring for the society, caring for your family, is essential to Buddhist ideas, Buddhist thoughts, teachings and practice. Non-violence, non-aggression are very central, loving kindness, compassion is very central. So then, not just some doing your own practice in a secluded area, but then really manifesting it externally, bringing it externally, to manifest, so that greater part of society could benefit from it, and could be more inspired and motivated. Ya, I think it’s time. It’s time, and I’m glad that in Austria actually Buddhism is officially religion now, accepted. So the religion is official, so why practitioner cannot be official (Laughing).
You know this, we have 30 year anniversary, 30 years of Buddhism in Austria…
Somebody mentioned, yes. I’m happy about that. I think it’s a recognition, timely recognition, of the message and importance that the Buddhists or Buddhism can contribute to society. That is the recognition that people are finally waking up to.
Interview and transcription by Thomas Klien